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	<title>Comments on: Messy assessment instead of flogging with the standards</title>
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	<link>http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2006/04/25/messy-assessment-instead-of-flogging-with-the-standards/</link>
	<description>Weblog of Wesley Fryer</description>
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		<title>By: Moving at the Speed of Creativity &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The best of Wes</title>
		<link>http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2006/04/25/messy-assessment-instead-of-flogging-with-the-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-7671</link>
		<dc:creator>Moving at the Speed of Creativity &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The best of Wes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jul 2006 04:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.speedofcreativity.org/?p=954#comment-7671</guid>
		<description>[...] One of my favourite posts was Messy Assessment instead of flogging with standards. I don&#8217;t know if Wes coined the phrase &#8220;messy assessment&#8221; but he certainly has caught my attention with it. In Canada, we have not had to fight the heavy emphasis on testing and standards but I sense it&#8217;s coming. I appreciate not only Wes&#8217; thoughts but I like the fact that he carries on the conversation within the comments. Here&#8217;s part of Wes&#8217; answer to a comment about this post. Another hallmark of messy assessment can involve audience. If we are just doing something for an audience of one (the teacher) then there may be a higher chance the activity is a fake one: not very authentic. If we are doing it for a broader audience, especially one that extends beyond the walls of the traditional classroom, then chances could be higher that the work we’ll do will be authentic. And the assessment can be messy. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] One of my favourite posts was Messy Assessment instead of flogging with standards. I don&#8217;t know if Wes coined the phrase &#8220;messy assessment&#8221; but he certainly has caught my attention with it. In Canada, we have not had to fight the heavy emphasis on testing and standards but I sense it&#8217;s coming. I appreciate not only Wes&#8217; thoughts but I like the fact that he carries on the conversation within the comments. Here&#8217;s part of Wes&#8217; answer to a comment about this post. Another hallmark of messy assessment can involve audience. If we are just doing something for an audience of one (the teacher) then there may be a higher chance the activity is a fake one: not very authentic. If we are doing it for a broader audience, especially one that extends beyond the walls of the traditional classroom, then chances could be higher that the work we’ll do will be authentic. And the assessment can be messy. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Weekly Roundup (30 April 2006) at teaching.mrbelshaw.co.uk</title>
		<link>http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2006/04/25/messy-assessment-instead-of-flogging-with-the-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-2764</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekly Roundup (30 April 2006) at teaching.mrbelshaw.co.uk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.speedofcreativity.org/?p=954#comment-2764</guid>
		<description>[...] Moving at the Speed of Creativity - Messy assessment instead of flogging with the standards [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Moving at the Speed of Creativity &#8211; Messy assessment instead of flogging with the standards [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ellenweber</title>
		<link>http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2006/04/25/messy-assessment-instead-of-flogging-with-the-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-2605</link>
		<dc:creator>ellenweber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.speedofcreativity.org/?p=954#comment-2605</guid>
		<description>What a wonderful story to remind us to go more with how the brain works and to create more brain friendly settings for learning and assessment. I&#039;d like to see a story about what that setting would look like and how it would prosper our teens who are dying in today&#039;s secondary school. Thanks for this key work toward improved results!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a wonderful story to remind us to go more with how the brain works and to create more brain friendly settings for learning and assessment. I&#8217;d like to see a story about what that setting would look like and how it would prosper our teens who are dying in today&#8217;s secondary school. Thanks for this key work toward improved results!</p>
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		<title>By: Wesley Fryer</title>
		<link>http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2006/04/25/messy-assessment-instead-of-flogging-with-the-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-2224</link>
		<dc:creator>Wesley Fryer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.speedofcreativity.org/?p=954#comment-2224</guid>
		<description>Wow, these are great questions Aaron. I guess I am seeing the pendulum swing so far in the direction of standards and formal, multiple-choice assessment here in Texas that maybe I&#039;m overly demonizing the ideal of standards. Clearly just as we need educational assessment, we need educational objectives. Rather than narrowly define them at the knowledge and comprehension level of Bloom&#039;s taxonomy, however (which tend to be the easiest to measure I think) we should be &quot;taking it up a notch&quot;-- or better yet several notches.

Maybe we should be searching for characteristics that define &quot;messy assessment.&quot; I think one hallmark would be that the assignment cannot be faked: it can&#039;t be copied or merely plagiarized. It sounds like you are challenging your students to think on their own, synthesize ideas from real-world news sources, and represent their understanding of those ideas in their own words using the language. This sounds like a winning combination ot me.

Often we get hung up on baggage that goes with words for which we have prior schema. Maybe &quot;standards&quot; and &quot;objectives&quot; fit into this mold. Just as I would never advocate doing away with assessment in education, neither would I advocate doing away with objectives. I think it is critical we focus on how we define those objectives and how they are operationized into tasks: inside and outside the classroom.

Another hallmark of messy assessment can involve audience. If we are just doing something for an audience of one (the teacher) then there may be a higher chance the activity is a fake one: not very authentic. If we are doing it for a broader audience, especially one that extends beyond the walls of the traditional classroom, then chances could be higher that the work we&#039;ll do will be authentic. And the assessment can be messy.

Thanks for posing these challenging questions, Aaron. I will be eager to hear what others thing too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, these are great questions Aaron. I guess I am seeing the pendulum swing so far in the direction of standards and formal, multiple-choice assessment here in Texas that maybe I&#8217;m overly demonizing the ideal of standards. Clearly just as we need educational assessment, we need educational objectives. Rather than narrowly define them at the knowledge and comprehension level of Bloom&#8217;s taxonomy, however (which tend to be the easiest to measure I think) we should be &#8220;taking it up a notch&#8221;&#8211; or better yet several notches.</p>
<p>Maybe we should be searching for characteristics that define &#8220;messy assessment.&#8221; I think one hallmark would be that the assignment cannot be faked: it can&#8217;t be copied or merely plagiarized. It sounds like you are challenging your students to think on their own, synthesize ideas from real-world news sources, and represent their understanding of those ideas in their own words using the language. This sounds like a winning combination ot me.</p>
<p>Often we get hung up on baggage that goes with words for which we have prior schema. Maybe &#8220;standards&#8221; and &#8220;objectives&#8221; fit into this mold. Just as I would never advocate doing away with assessment in education, neither would I advocate doing away with objectives. I think it is critical we focus on how we define those objectives and how they are operationized into tasks: inside and outside the classroom.</p>
<p>Another hallmark of messy assessment can involve audience. If we are just doing something for an audience of one (the teacher) then there may be a higher chance the activity is a fake one: not very authentic. If we are doing it for a broader audience, especially one that extends beyond the walls of the traditional classroom, then chances could be higher that the work we&#8217;ll do will be authentic. And the assessment can be messy.</p>
<p>Thanks for posing these challenging questions, Aaron. I will be eager to hear what others thing too.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Muir</title>
		<link>http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2006/04/25/messy-assessment-instead-of-flogging-with-the-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-2221</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.speedofcreativity.org/?p=954#comment-2221</guid>
		<description>Wes,

I agree with one addition.  Assessment might drive where we&#039;re going (although we tend to think of it as setting up an accountablility system - measure what we value), but we need to bridge the content/curriculum and the assessment.  You hint at this with your assault on worksheets.  We need to address instruction.

Recently, in a series of posts, I&#039;ve talked about this very issue.  In &lt;a href=&quot;http://everyonelearns.blogspot.com/2006/04/answer-to-curriculum-might-not-be_22.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Part 2&lt;/a&gt; of The Answer to Curriculum Might Not Be Content, I make the case that hard to teach kids can learn the high status curriculum and point to examples of educators who have been successful.  And in &lt;a href=&quot;http://everyonelearns.blogspot.com/2006/04/answer-to-curriculum-might-not-be_24.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Part 3&lt;/a&gt;, I offer ideas and resources of where we might look for help on what our instruction should look like so both hard to teach and easy to teach students can learn to high standards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wes,</p>
<p>I agree with one addition.  Assessment might drive where we&#8217;re going (although we tend to think of it as setting up an accountablility system &#8211; measure what we value), but we need to bridge the content/curriculum and the assessment.  You hint at this with your assault on worksheets.  We need to address instruction.</p>
<p>Recently, in a series of posts, I&#8217;ve talked about this very issue.  In <a href="http://everyonelearns.blogspot.com/2006/04/answer-to-curriculum-might-not-be_22.html" rel="nofollow">Part 2</a> of The Answer to Curriculum Might Not Be Content, I make the case that hard to teach kids can learn the high status curriculum and point to examples of educators who have been successful.  And in <a href="http://everyonelearns.blogspot.com/2006/04/answer-to-curriculum-might-not-be_24.html" rel="nofollow">Part 3</a>, I offer ideas and resources of where we might look for help on what our instruction should look like so both hard to teach and easy to teach students can learn to high standards</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2006/04/25/messy-assessment-instead-of-flogging-with-the-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-2206</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.speedofcreativity.org/?p=954#comment-2206</guid>
		<description>Hey Wesley,

I really enjoyed this post. Maybe I&#039;m not fully understanding you here, and so I would like to venture asking you a question. 

I work as an ESL teacher in Mexico City, and I&#039;m pushing to use standards in our classes. *cringe* Now, this is where my question lies: The standards I am referring to are in relation to describing what a student should be able to do before he/she can move onto the next level of learning English. 

These standards, or proficiency statements, refer to spoken, listening, reading, and writing skills that we need to help our students be able to do. Does that make sense? 

I guess I&#039;m wondering if you agree with these kinds of standards. They totally, in my humble opinion, step away from the traditional classroom assessment and embrace what you call &quot;messy assessment.&quot; 

Why they are messy:
An example of a Spoken Standard: &quot;I can ask someone else and talk about my day-to-day activites and routine work requirements.&quot; 

How do you cleanly evaluate that? It defies a handout (loved that line by the way). It doesn&#039;t fit nicely into a test that you can memorize for, and then later forget. It has been, so far, very messy. 

Here&#039;s what I am thinking of doing with this standard: I am working with my students to help them prepare what they would say to meet this statement. (We&#039;re on class 3 around this so far.) When I say prepare, we&#039;re listening to authentic interviews from CNN, National Public Radio etc where people describe their daily routines, we&#039;re using that audio to glean useful language and notice verbs etc., and we&#039;re doing a lot of writing. 
 I&#039;m encouraging them to think about, and reflect upon their work. We&#039;re writing it down, we&#039;re exchanging and writing comments on each other&#039;s work (prepping for an introduction to blogging)  
The goal is not a test. The goal is to record them in conversation, and insert that conversation in a portfolio as proof that they have met the standard. 

Wes, I hope this makes a little bit of sense, but I really wanted to ask you for your opinion. Do you think this is messy? Or do you think this is an example of an evil standard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Wesley,</p>
<p>I really enjoyed this post. Maybe I&#8217;m not fully understanding you here, and so I would like to venture asking you a question. </p>
<p>I work as an ESL teacher in Mexico City, and I&#8217;m pushing to use standards in our classes. *cringe* Now, this is where my question lies: The standards I am referring to are in relation to describing what a student should be able to do before he/she can move onto the next level of learning English. </p>
<p>These standards, or proficiency statements, refer to spoken, listening, reading, and writing skills that we need to help our students be able to do. Does that make sense? </p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m wondering if you agree with these kinds of standards. They totally, in my humble opinion, step away from the traditional classroom assessment and embrace what you call &#8220;messy assessment.&#8221; </p>
<p>Why they are messy:<br />
An example of a Spoken Standard: &#8220;I can ask someone else and talk about my day-to-day activites and routine work requirements.&#8221; </p>
<p>How do you cleanly evaluate that? It defies a handout (loved that line by the way). It doesn&#8217;t fit nicely into a test that you can memorize for, and then later forget. It has been, so far, very messy. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what I am thinking of doing with this standard: I am working with my students to help them prepare what they would say to meet this statement. (We&#8217;re on class 3 around this so far.) When I say prepare, we&#8217;re listening to authentic interviews from CNN, National Public Radio etc where people describe their daily routines, we&#8217;re using that audio to glean useful language and notice verbs etc., and we&#8217;re doing a lot of writing.<br />
 I&#8217;m encouraging them to think about, and reflect upon their work. We&#8217;re writing it down, we&#8217;re exchanging and writing comments on each other&#8217;s work (prepping for an introduction to blogging)<br />
The goal is not a test. The goal is to record them in conversation, and insert that conversation in a portfolio as proof that they have met the standard. </p>
<p>Wes, I hope this makes a little bit of sense, but I really wanted to ask you for your opinion. Do you think this is messy? Or do you think this is an example of an evil standard?</p>
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