Comments on: The outboard brain, memory, transfer and learning http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/ Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:15:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Memorization, the mind, and making connections @ What is School 2.0? http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-47523 Memorization, the mind, and making connections @ What is School 2.0? Tue, 29 Jan 2008 05:12:19 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-47523 [...] mind, and making connections Posted on January 29, 2008 by James Sigler. Categories: Uncategorized. The outboard brain, memory, transfer and learning » Moving at the Speed of Creativity I won’t pretend to know what really defines a “genius.” I do perceive that people who can [...] [...] mind, and making connections Posted on January 29, 2008 by James Sigler. Categories: Uncategorized. The outboard brain, memory, transfer and learning » Moving at the Speed of Creativity I won’t pretend to know what really defines a “genius.” I do perceive that people who can [...]

]]> By: LearningForward » “Bad” Technology in the Classroom http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42922 LearningForward » “Bad” Technology in the Classroom Sun, 11 Nov 2007 01:28:21 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42922 [...] use of technologies like computers and cell phones in the classroom.  Add to this Wes Fryers post http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/.  Adding my personal experience with my kids’ schools - my daughter’s school allows [...] [...] use of technologies like computers and cell phones in the classroom.  Add to this Wes Fryers post http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/.  Adding my personal experience with my kids’ schools - my daughter’s school allows [...]

]]> By: Education Investigation » Blog Archive » Spelling - What is the best way?! http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42876 Education Investigation » Blog Archive » Spelling - What is the best way?! Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:35:42 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42876 [...] I had other ideas for a post but after reading Wesley Fryer’s post “The Ouboard Brain, Memory, Transfer and Learning” I have to ask the question - Who has hit the nail on the head when it comes to teaching spelling? [...] [...] I had other ideas for a post but after reading Wesley Fryer’s post “The Ouboard Brain, Memory, Transfer and Learning” I have to ask the question - Who has hit the nail on the head when it comes to teaching spelling? [...]

]]> By: Wesley Fryer http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42841 Wesley Fryer Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:04:25 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42841 Good feedback here. To your points James, yes-- CONTEXT is the key. My beef is most directly with decontextualized spelling tests, which seem to be everywhere. I'd challenge you and others to find sound educational research which supports spelling tests. It's not out there, from what I've learned. I can dig into my notes from my doctoral literacy classes and pull some of the research that indicates spelling tests are not effectual. I think schools tell teachers to give spelling tests because they are easy to give, easy to grade, and we've always done them. It takes virtually no instructional or pedagogic skill to give a spelling test. The custodian or a substitute teacher with zero instructional knowledge can give a spelling test (and even grade it) just as effectively as a master teacher. I know there are realities like "I have to give a grade on spelling" - my encouragement here is for teachers as well as administrators to examine their own practices, and ask if there are good reasons to persist in the instructional tasks and assessments which we generally accept because of our own past experiences with them and their ease of implementation, rather than whether they are good for kids or learning. In terms of the reading/writing connection and spelling, again I'd refer you and others to the research rather than just your own experiences and perceptions. Certainly our own experiences are an important lens for considering our instructional practices, and I won't discount that. But again, look at what Krashen says in his meta-analysis ("The Power of Reading") of educational research on literacy development, first and second language acquisition, reading and writing. The spelling link you're putting faith in isn't there, from what I've studied. My son is a case in point. He just finished reading the 6th Harry Potter book last night about 9 pm. That was Thursday night. He started the book on Sunday. He is 9 years old, almost 10, and in the 4th grade. He read the 600+ pages in five days and can discuss the plot, characters, controversies, etc in detail. His comprehension of the text he read is very high. Yet he has extreme, consistent difficulty passing a decontextualized spelling test. So at a personal level, I see him as a specific example and counter-point to your perception that "giving kids spelling tests will help them be better readers." If we want students to be better readers, we have to provide them with access to diverse types of texts, give them choices about what they read, provide TIME for them to read, and support them in their reading in various ways. That does not mean pushing an extrinsic reward system like AR for students. Reading for enjoyment has it's own rewards. We want students to read not because they have to, but because it is wonderful and they love it. As Alexander and I were discussing last night, reading a book like Harry Potter can literally transport you into a different world. When students have discovered this, their reading AND writing AND spelling skills will improve. This is not rocket science. And it is well documented/supported in educational research, not just my own personal experiences. Joselyn: You are right that we have to have specific knowledge about things to understand and think about ideas deeply. My beef is that too often we stay at the superficial level. Some memorization is certainly needed. I had to memorize a ton of things in my educational background and I know that helped me develop the schema which gives present meaning to me in many contexts. I guess I don't see this as an either/or proposition. Many arguments in education are portrayed that way and I think that can be harmful. Phonics or whole language? My answer is both. Kids are different, and they learn to read in different ways. If phonics helps them, great. The main key is READING. Phonics does not work for everyone. Is knowledge transmitted or constructed? It's mainly constructed, but information can also be transmitted (or "delivered") in compelling ways. Do do we need classrooms focused entirely all on process with no content? Certainly not! When it comes to memorization and synthesis, again I think we need a balance. This makes me think of Bloom's Taxonomy. The knowledge and comprehension level is at the bottom of the pyramid. You need to know the elements and about them to think at higher levels about them. So there IS a place for memorization. In many cases, however, I think the focus on memorization is misplaced. The U.S. states and capitals are an example. You have GOOD reasons for having students memorize things about the periodic table. I don't think most teachers have compelling reasons to have students memorize states and capitals, other than the fact that they've always given that assignment and it's very easy to do and assess. Great comments, great thinking. Keep it coming. You all are challenging me and I love it. :-) Good feedback here. To your points James, yes– CONTEXT is the key. My beef is most directly with decontextualized spelling tests, which seem to be everywhere. I’d challenge you and others to find sound educational research which supports spelling tests. It’s not out there, from what I’ve learned. I can dig into my notes from my doctoral literacy classes and pull some of the research that indicates spelling tests are not effectual. I think schools tell teachers to give spelling tests because they are easy to give, easy to grade, and we’ve always done them. It takes virtually no instructional or pedagogic skill to give a spelling test. The custodian or a substitute teacher with zero instructional knowledge can give a spelling test (and even grade it) just as effectively as a master teacher. I know there are realities like “I have to give a grade on spelling” - my encouragement here is for teachers as well as administrators to examine their own practices, and ask if there are good reasons to persist in the instructional tasks and assessments which we generally accept because of our own past experiences with them and their ease of implementation, rather than whether they are good for kids or learning.

In terms of the reading/writing connection and spelling, again I’d refer you and others to the research rather than just your own experiences and perceptions. Certainly our own experiences are an important lens for considering our instructional practices, and I won’t discount that. But again, look at what Krashen says in his meta-analysis (”The Power of Reading”) of educational research on literacy development, first and second language acquisition, reading and writing. The spelling link you’re putting faith in isn’t there, from what I’ve studied.

My son is a case in point. He just finished reading the 6th Harry Potter book last night about 9 pm. That was Thursday night. He started the book on Sunday. He is 9 years old, almost 10, and in the 4th grade. He read the 600+ pages in five days and can discuss the plot, characters, controversies, etc in detail. His comprehension of the text he read is very high. Yet he has extreme, consistent difficulty passing a decontextualized spelling test. So at a personal level, I see him as a specific example and counter-point to your perception that “giving kids spelling tests will help them be better readers.”

If we want students to be better readers, we have to provide them with access to diverse types of texts, give them choices about what they read, provide TIME for them to read, and support them in their reading in various ways. That does not mean pushing an extrinsic reward system like AR for students. Reading for enjoyment has it’s own rewards. We want students to read not because they have to, but because it is wonderful and they love it. As Alexander and I were discussing last night, reading a book like Harry Potter can literally transport you into a different world. When students have discovered this, their reading AND writing AND spelling skills will improve. This is not rocket science. And it is well documented/supported in educational research, not just my own personal experiences.

Joselyn: You are right that we have to have specific knowledge about things to understand and think about ideas deeply. My beef is that too often we stay at the superficial level. Some memorization is certainly needed. I had to memorize a ton of things in my educational background and I know that helped me develop the schema which gives present meaning to me in many contexts. I guess I don’t see this as an either/or proposition. Many arguments in education are portrayed that way and I think that can be harmful. Phonics or whole language? My answer is both. Kids are different, and they learn to read in different ways. If phonics helps them, great. The main key is READING. Phonics does not work for everyone. Is knowledge transmitted or constructed? It’s mainly constructed, but information can also be transmitted (or “delivered”) in compelling ways. Do do we need classrooms focused entirely all on process with no content? Certainly not! When it comes to memorization and synthesis, again I think we need a balance. This makes me think of Bloom’s Taxonomy. The knowledge and comprehension level is at the bottom of the pyramid. You need to know the elements and about them to think at higher levels about them. So there IS a place for memorization. In many cases, however, I think the focus on memorization is misplaced. The U.S. states and capitals are an example. You have GOOD reasons for having students memorize things about the periodic table. I don’t think most teachers have compelling reasons to have students memorize states and capitals, other than the fact that they’ve always given that assignment and it’s very easy to do and assess.

Great comments, great thinking. Keep it coming. You all are challenging me and I love it. :-)

]]> By: Joselyn Todd http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42832 Joselyn Todd Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:31:32 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42832 Wes, I have been contemplating this too as I have been teaching a basic chemistry unit. Generally speaking, I ask my students to memorize nothing that they can look up. This last week I found myself requesting that my students memorize the symbols of 40 of the most common elements encountered in chemistry. Why did I do this? Because we are starting to create screencasts where students produce teaching videos regarding ionic and covalent bonding as well as balancing of chemical equations for their peers and others I need them to be able to at least recognize basic symbols such as H for Hydrogen or Cl for Chlorine so that they can proceed forth with higher order thinking skills and not be bogged down with looking up every symbol. Many of us have memorized an encyclopedia of information over the years of our schooling yet what remains is the ability to synthesize and analyze divergent pieces of information- and to be creative with this analysis. Many of us would not have reached anything close to to our current intellectual capacity without some basic foundational roots. We teach what we know and how we have learned. In my mind here lies the problem. The world of information and literacy races forward at a logarithmic pace meanwhile so many of our educational systems and pedagogy are stuck at a linear, nearly flat line pace. This is a pace that is rooted in a past of Encyclopedia Britannica knowledge (and perhaps the memorization of 40 common element symbols) as opposed to the world of Wikis and rapid evolution of concepts, information, and knowledge. Thankfully, we have a few practitioners in the classroom that can take foundational knowledge and move it into logarithmic phase using new tools that stretch analytical thought and creativity. Being able to recall that "H" stands for hydrogen isn't going to give anyone an edge in our current global economy- but being able to do something with this knowledge might! ( Still waiting for my hydrogen powered car.) Cheers and love your thoughts... Wes, I have been contemplating this too as I have been teaching a basic chemistry unit. Generally speaking, I ask my students to memorize nothing that they can look up. This last week I found myself requesting that my students memorize the symbols of 40 of the most common elements encountered in chemistry. Why did I do this? Because we are starting to create screencasts where students produce teaching videos regarding ionic and covalent bonding as well as balancing of chemical equations for their peers and others I need them to be able to at least recognize basic symbols such as H for Hydrogen or Cl for Chlorine so that they can proceed forth with higher order thinking skills and not be bogged down with looking up every symbol.

Many of us have memorized an encyclopedia of information over the years of our schooling yet what remains is the ability to synthesize and analyze divergent pieces of information- and to be creative with this analysis. Many of us would not have reached anything close to to our current intellectual capacity without some basic foundational roots.

We teach what we know and how we have learned. In my mind here lies the problem. The world of information and literacy races forward at a logarithmic pace meanwhile so many of our educational systems and pedagogy are stuck at a linear, nearly flat line pace. This is a pace that is rooted in a past of Encyclopedia Britannica knowledge (and perhaps the memorization of 40 common element symbols) as opposed to the world of Wikis and rapid evolution of concepts, information, and knowledge. Thankfully, we have a few practitioners in the classroom that can take foundational knowledge and move it into logarithmic phase using new tools that stretch analytical thought and creativity. Being able to recall that “H” stands for hydrogen isn’t going to give anyone an edge in our current global economy- but being able to do something with this knowledge might! ( Still waiting for my hydrogen powered car.) Cheers and love your thoughts…

]]> By: James Sigler http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42817 James Sigler Fri, 09 Nov 2007 03:52:59 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42817 I should have just blogged the whole blooming comment because it got too long for one comment. This comment is a defense of spelling tests. I do give spelling tests (mainly because I have to give a spelling grade. I have noticed a curious corollary between reading scores, writing ability, and spelling scores. Those who struggle with reading and sometimes writing often have trouble spelling. I think it is because most of our English words are spelled phonetically or follow sound-to-letter rules. Phonics and phonetic awareness are two of the five facets of teaching reading, so those weak in phonics are weak in reading and spelling. The short of that long premise is that I think spelling test are fairly valid tests of student reading(and maybe writing) ability. Maybe they are just not testing what we think they are testing. That being said, I still don't like giving spelling tests outside of the context of writing. I should have just blogged the whole blooming comment because it got too long for one comment. This comment is a defense of spelling tests.
I do give spelling tests (mainly because I have to give a spelling grade. I have noticed a curious corollary between reading scores, writing ability, and spelling scores. Those who struggle with reading and sometimes writing often have trouble spelling. I think it is because most of our English words are spelled phonetically or follow sound-to-letter rules. Phonics and phonetic awareness are two of the five facets of teaching reading, so those weak in phonics are weak in reading and spelling. The short of that long premise is that I think spelling test are fairly valid tests of student reading(and maybe writing) ability. Maybe they are just not testing what we think they are testing.
That being said, I still don’t like giving spelling tests outside of the context of writing.

]]> By: James Sigler http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42816 James Sigler Fri, 09 Nov 2007 03:49:23 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42816 Whew, that's a lot to process. I'll have to comment some here and blog the rest. Is there no place for memorization in education? Isn't great writing heightened by reference to famous phrases from literature ("Abandon all hope ye who enter here...") and poetry ("Water, water everywhere and..."?) If you do not have those famous phrases from great American documents ("We hold these truths to be...") and classic literature ("et tu Brute?") already in memory how can you add them to your writing? I am an old English major, so I am partial. I do remember your point that these factoids are pulled kicking and screaming out of their context and not used to add a rich and subtle background in writing. You point is rather the opposite of my paragraph above, that spelling tests are given outside the context of reading and writing. That the states and capitals are tested outside the context of their history. R08 said "in order to develop those higher thinking skills, it is necessary to have a base of knowledge memorized." It is Ok to memorize as long as it is the beginning of knowledge, not the end. Knowledge needs to be deep instead of shallow memorization. Whew, that’s a lot to process. I’ll have to comment some here and blog the rest. Is there no place for memorization in education? Isn’t great writing heightened by reference to famous phrases from literature (”Abandon all hope ye who enter here…”) and poetry (”Water, water everywhere and…”?) If you do not have those famous phrases from great American documents (”We hold these truths to be…”) and classic literature (”et tu Brute?”) already in memory how can you add them to your writing? I am an old English major, so I am partial.
I do remember your point that these factoids are pulled kicking and screaming out of their context and not used to add a rich and subtle background in writing. You point is rather the opposite of my paragraph above, that spelling tests are given outside the context of reading and writing. That the states and capitals are tested outside the context of their history.
R08 said “in order to develop those higher thinking skills, it is necessary to have a base of knowledge memorized.” It is Ok to memorize as long as it is the beginning of knowledge, not the end. Knowledge needs to be deep instead of shallow memorization.

]]> By: HY08 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42799 HY08 Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:39:48 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42799 Instead of taking away electronic tools groups such as the Rotary should embrace them. They should ask the kids to demonstrate them and explain how they can be used in the everyday world. Instead of taking away electronic tools groups such as the Rotary should embrace them. They should ask the kids to demonstrate them and explain how they can be used in the everyday world.

]]> By: Jim Walker http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42788 Jim Walker Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:51:33 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42788 Without a working scheme new information/knowledge/skills don't make any sense and will not be attached to the neural network. Without a working scheme new information/knowledge/skills don’t make any sense and will not be attached to the neural network.

]]> By: R08 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42786 R08 Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:20:44 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42786 It's true that higher thinking skills need to be part of the classroom more than they already are, and that nearly any information we wish to acquire can be found on the internet. But in order to develop those higher thinking skills, it is necessary to have a base of knowledge memorized. I think it's important to be consciously aware of the geography of the world you live in, etc. It’s true that higher thinking skills need to be part of the classroom more than they already are, and that nearly any information we wish to acquire can be found on the internet. But in order to develop those higher thinking skills, it is necessary to have a base of knowledge memorized. I think it’s important to be consciously aware of the geography of the world you live in, etc.

]]> By: sylvia martinez http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42777 sylvia martinez Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:24:21 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42777 Wow, Wes! As usual you've tossed a lot meat on the BBQ here! Just to expand on one of these points, "The message of the event seemed to be, “See how these kids really aren’t that smart after all?”" This is so true - we aren't very comfortable with smart kids. I see it all the time. No matter what a kid does right, there's always someone to point out what they are doing wrong. Do you think this is just in the US? Is this just about anti-intellectualism or do you think it's specifically about adults needing to feel superior? Or another reason? Whatever it is, I think it fuels the mindset that allows us to treat students as objects that need content "delivered" to them and can be mass-tested. Until we can acknowledge individual gifts and capabilities in kids, we won't see them at all. I'm not sure brain research or renaming classrooms helps that. Thanks for kick starting my morning! Wow, Wes! As usual you’ve tossed a lot meat on the BBQ here! Just to expand on one of these points, “The message of the event seemed to be, “See how these kids really aren’t that smart after all?””

This is so true - we aren’t very comfortable with smart kids. I see it all the time. No matter what a kid does right, there’s always someone to point out what they are doing wrong. Do you think this is just in the US? Is this just about anti-intellectualism or do you think it’s specifically about adults needing to feel superior? Or another reason?

Whatever it is, I think it fuels the mindset that allows us to treat students as objects that need content “delivered” to them and can be mass-tested. Until we can acknowledge individual gifts and capabilities in kids, we won’t see them at all. I’m not sure brain research or renaming classrooms helps that.

Thanks for kick starting my morning!

]]> By: Jim Walker http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42765 Jim Walker Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:14:17 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2007/11/08/the-outboard-brain-memory-transfer-and-learning/#comment-42765 Wes, I am a sped techer who has to give a high stakes test to high school students who are at their best working at 6th grade level and tell them that if they don't pass they will not graduate. Many of these students just don't have a good memory system for facts, but they are good problem solvers. We should be giving them the tools that are at hand and teach them to use the tools to solve problems and communicate with people who can help them. But, they also need a walking around knowledge of the their envornment, like New Mexico is a state, the function of Congress, times table. To pull out your cell phone to divide 20 by 5 is not the correct use of the tool. We have to be careful that we don't "outboard" esential knowledge. I like the term learning center for school and I agree that teachers have to not be the guardians of knowledge, but role models as learners. Wes,
I am a sped techer who has to give a high stakes test to high school students who are at their
best working at 6th grade level and tell them that if they don’t pass they will not graduate.
Many of these students just don’t have a good memory system for facts, but they are good
problem solvers. We should be giving them the tools that are at hand and teach them to use the tools
to solve problems and communicate with people who can help them.
But, they also need a walking around knowledge of the their envornment, like New Mexico is a state, the function of Congress, times table. To pull out your cell phone to divide 20 by 5 is not the correct use of the tool. We have to be careful that we don’t “outboard” esential knowledge.
I like the term learning center for school and I agree that teachers have to not be the guardians of knowledge, but role models as learners.

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