Comments on: Engage Me or Enrage Me: Educating Today’s Digital Native Learners http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:22:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Wesley Fryer http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49926 Wesley Fryer Tue, 11 Mar 2008 00:22:28 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49926 Well, I think a great deal of valuable things can happen when people learn to program. Like many things, I'll agree that programming isn't for everyone. And I'm not going to argue that we should force it upon everyone for four years in high school. But I will make the argument that we should provide students with more opportunities than many have now in our public schools to learn programming, as well as robotics design. Will a majority of kids go one to work for NASA and design the next planetary landers? No. But will students find that sort of work engaging, and develop (potentially) a robust set of skills including troubleshooting, problem solving, and logical thinking? Yes. I agree with your point that people don't have to learn how to program to use technology, and I am a supporter as well as user of those sorts of "bridge" technologies which empower creativity and collaboration without requiring a background in C++. I still think, however, we need to provide more opportunities for students to engage in programming. If the flat world offers anything to those who are connected, it is the ability to earn unlimited sums of money for their creative work in innovating or inventing new software applications. That is an opportunity the architects of 19th and 20th century schools didn't even have on their radar screen. We should today, however. Well, I think a great deal of valuable things can happen when people learn to program. Like many things, I’ll agree that programming isn’t for everyone. And I’m not going to argue that we should force it upon everyone for four years in high school. But I will make the argument that we should provide students with more opportunities than many have now in our public schools to learn programming, as well as robotics design. Will a majority of kids go one to work for NASA and design the next planetary landers? No. But will students find that sort of work engaging, and develop (potentially) a robust set of skills including troubleshooting, problem solving, and logical thinking? Yes.

I agree with your point that people don’t have to learn how to program to use technology, and I am a supporter as well as user of those sorts of “bridge” technologies which empower creativity and collaboration without requiring a background in C++. I still think, however, we need to provide more opportunities for students to engage in programming. If the flat world offers anything to those who are connected, it is the ability to earn unlimited sums of money for their creative work in innovating or inventing new software applications. That is an opportunity the architects of 19th and 20th century schools didn’t even have on their radar screen. We should today, however.

]]> By: Scott O'Raw http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49923 Scott O'Raw Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:14:32 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49923 Only just got back to this post. Having now read the link that Marc submitted (ironically I had to read the source code of the page as it didn't render at all in Camino on OS X) I take it all back. I write HTML (which as one of the commenters pointed out isn't actually programming as it's a MARKUP language), CSS and a certain amount of PHP every day and I wouldn't even class myself as a programmer. I am perfectly happy to let OX S bubble away beneath me, quite content as it deals with my lumpen keystrokes and ill-advised swipes across the track-pad. I am in no way concerned with the Unix, Darwin or Cocoa that beat at it's heart. The same is true of my mobile phone, my car, my LCD television, or my private jet (ok I made the last one up). I admit that there are some things I need to learn in order to engage with and utilize these tools but there is no pre-requisite to their use that means I need to know to create a car, phone, TV or private jet of my own. People do not, and should not, need to learn how to programme in this sense at all. The only thing that people need to learn to do with technology is be inquisitive. And the biggest barrier to that is fear. Only just got back to this post.

Having now read the link that Marc submitted (ironically I had to read the source code of the page as it didn’t render at all in Camino on OS X) I take it all back. I write HTML (which as one of the commenters pointed out isn’t actually programming as it’s a MARKUP language), CSS and a certain amount of PHP every day and I wouldn’t even class myself as a programmer.

I am perfectly happy to let OX S bubble away beneath me, quite content as it deals with my lumpen keystrokes and ill-advised swipes across the track-pad. I am in no way concerned with the Unix, Darwin or Cocoa that beat at it’s heart. The same is true of my mobile phone, my car, my LCD television, or my private jet (ok I made the last one up). I admit that there are some things I need to learn in order to engage with and utilize these tools but there is no pre-requisite to their use that means I need to know to create a car, phone, TV or private jet of my own.

People do not, and should not, need to learn how to programme in this sense at all. The only thing that people need to learn to do with technology is be inquisitive. And the biggest barrier to that is fear.

]]> By: An Expat Educator in Asia » Meme: Passion Quilt. “Don’t think, Try!” http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49653 An Expat Educator in Asia » Meme: Passion Quilt. “Don’t think, Try!” Tue, 04 Mar 2008 07:45:32 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49653 [...] 21st Century Learner/Workers. Picking up on Wes Fryers comments about Mark Prensky’s presentation Engage Me or Enrage Me: Educating Today’s Digital Native Learners, where he mentions how the power of technology and what we can do with it increases a billion fold [...] [...] 21st Century Learner/Workers. Picking up on Wes Fryers comments about Mark Prensky’s presentation Engage Me or Enrage Me: Educating Today’s Digital Native Learners, where he mentions how the power of technology and what we can do with it increases a billion fold [...]

]]> By: Wesley Fryer http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49632 Wesley Fryer Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:45:09 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49632 Colette: One of the important things to remember about edtech conferences like NCCE (I need this reminder too) is that many of the attendees are coming for the first time. So while Marc has been sharing this message for awhile, there are still LOTS of folks (including large numbers of the keynote audience, most likely) who have NOT heard the message yet. I think one of the biggest challenges for edtech conference presenters is speaking to both newbies as well as more experienced educators who have "been around the block" when it comes to conference themes and messages. Although I had heard Marc share a similar message in 2006 there were still some new things I picked up on, and some new ideas. He did a pretty good job with the "motivate to change" message. Colette: One of the important things to remember about edtech conferences like NCCE (I need this reminder too) is that many of the attendees are coming for the first time. So while Marc has been sharing this message for awhile, there are still LOTS of folks (including large numbers of the keynote audience, most likely) who have NOT heard the message yet. I think one of the biggest challenges for edtech conference presenters is speaking to both newbies as well as more experienced educators who have “been around the block” when it comes to conference themes and messages.

Although I had heard Marc share a similar message in 2006 there were still some new things I picked up on, and some new ideas. He did a pretty good job with the “motivate to change” message.

]]> By: Colette Cassinelli http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49631 Colette Cassinelli Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:32:55 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49631 If teachers don't take the time to at least "play and explore" with the technology they will never integrate it into their curriculum. It's just like listening to a lecture. It never really sinks in and makes sense until you think it over, debate it (like this forum) and re-synthesize it into your own understanding. My concern is if this keynote was originally given in 2006 - why are we continuing to still say "kids are different today" in the year 2008. We are educators. We know kids are different. Maybe this keynote would be more appropriate to an audience outside of educators. I am personally tired of hearing the message. I know my kids are different. Motivate me to change! If teachers don’t take the time to at least “play and explore” with the technology they will never integrate it into their curriculum. It’s just like listening to a lecture. It never really sinks in and makes sense until you think it over, debate it (like this forum) and re-synthesize it into your own understanding.

My concern is if this keynote was originally given in 2006 - why are we continuing to still say “kids are different today” in the year 2008. We are educators. We know kids are different. Maybe this keynote would be more appropriate to an audience outside of educators. I am personally tired of hearing the message. I know my kids are different. Motivate me to change!

]]> By: Marc Prensky http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49629 Marc Prensky Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:32:20 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49629 Amen to Sylvia. I agree it would be a better world for the students if all the teachers were experts in all the technologies. Trouble is it's just not going to happen. And the fear of needing to know all, prevents many teachers from even learning some. Far better, I think, to calm teachers' fears by saying they only need to know what the technologies do, not how to use them, and by encouranging them to let the students use them. Once the technologies start getting used by students, and teachers accept them as valid learning techniques and uses of student time, then those teachers who have the interest, bandwidth, and skill will come along and use them along with the students (or just reuse what their students did.) As for the programming part, please see my article "The True Twenty-first Century Literacy Is Programming" in Feb 2008's Edutopia (http://www.edutopia.org/programming) Amen to Sylvia. I agree it would be a better world for the students if all the teachers were experts in all the technologies. Trouble is it’s just not going to happen. And the fear of needing to know all, prevents many teachers from even learning some. Far better, I think, to calm teachers’ fears by saying they only need to know what the technologies do, not how to use them, and by encouranging them to let the students use them. Once the technologies start getting used by students, and teachers accept them as valid learning techniques and uses of student time, then those teachers who have the interest, bandwidth, and skill will come along and use them along with the students (or just reuse what their students did.)

As for the programming part, please see my article “The True Twenty-first Century Literacy Is Programming” in Feb 2008’s Edutopia (http://www.edutopia.org/programming)

]]> By: sylvia martinez http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49624 sylvia martinez Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:10:09 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49624 Wes, The problem with "teachers have to learn it first" is that we never get to "and then..." Somehow we always get stuck in the first stage. Seems to me that means we should rethink that policy. Nobody is saying "don't teach teachers about technology". What I would like to see more of is teachers learning alongside students so that teachers can see students using, learning, and sharing technology. Teachers need to see this, otherwise they tend to decide that it's too hard (for them AND their students). Wes,
The problem with “teachers have to learn it first” is that we never get to “and then…” Somehow we always get stuck in the first stage.

Seems to me that means we should rethink that policy. Nobody is saying “don’t teach teachers about technology”. What I would like to see more of is teachers learning alongside students so that teachers can see students using, learning, and sharing technology. Teachers need to see this, otherwise they tend to decide that it’s too hard (for them AND their students).

]]> By: Ewan McIntosh http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49620 Ewan McIntosh Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:58:33 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49620 Gosh, I could have written the same blog post four years ago, two years ago or last year, when I heard Prensky speak. But Scott, I think Marc is referring to programming in its Python, Ajax slightly scary coding sense. He sees this, rather than the exploitation of existing technology as the new language we must all learn. I think I've said the same about Chinese, but I don't see myself mastering Mandarin any time soon. I'm with Wes on this one - it's all good and well talking about stuff, but if you're not doing it, changing it and adapting it with time, then it's time for a new record (someone else) to be played... Gosh, I could have written the same blog post four years ago, two years ago or last year, when I heard Prensky speak. But Scott, I think Marc is referring to programming in its Python, Ajax slightly scary coding sense. He sees this, rather than the exploitation of existing technology as the new language we must all learn. I think I’ve said the same about Chinese, but I don’t see myself mastering Mandarin any time soon. I’m with Wes on this one - it’s all good and well talking about stuff, but if you’re not doing it, changing it and adapting it with time, then it’s time for a new record (someone else) to be played…

]]> By: Scott O'Raw http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49521 Scott O'Raw Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:19:46 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49521 Hi, Many thanks for posting this round-up and your comments. The combination makes for great reading. While I agree with in pulling Marc up on "it is important that teachers don’t waste their time learning to use these new tools - they don’t need to create with technology, because the kids can do it". However, I think your later point about programming may simply be one of semantics. I immediately thought not of an alarm clock but of that previous poster-boy for the generational split; the VCR. 20 years ago it was the ability to 'programme' the video that separated the MTV generation from the parents as 'baby-boomers'. Similarly, it is the ability of the 'Bebo-Boomers', as Ewan McIntosh calls them, to interact, mould and in this context 'programme' the net that is separating them from those who don't engage that I think Marc is referring to. In this instance programme would simply refer to WYSIWYG editors, uploading photos and videos etc. No one need know or care about the HTML, PHP, MySQL or Javascript that underpins the internet. Scott. P.S. Please excuse my archaic, British spelling of the word 'programme' ;-) Hi,

Many thanks for posting this round-up and your comments. The combination makes for great reading.

While I agree with in pulling Marc up on “it is important that teachers don’t waste their time learning to use these new tools - they don’t need to create with technology, because the kids can do it”. However, I think your later point about programming may simply be one of semantics. I immediately thought not of an alarm clock but of that previous poster-boy for the generational split; the VCR. 20 years ago it was the ability to ‘programme’ the video that separated the MTV generation from the parents as ‘baby-boomers’.

Similarly, it is the ability of the ‘Bebo-Boomers’, as Ewan McIntosh calls them, to interact, mould and in this context ‘programme’ the net that is separating them from those who don’t engage that I think Marc is referring to. In this instance programme would simply refer to WYSIWYG editors, uploading photos and videos etc. No one need know or care about the HTML, PHP, MySQL or Javascript that underpins the internet.

Scott.

P.S. Please excuse my archaic, British spelling of the word ‘programme’ ;-)

]]> By: Dave Falconetti http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49490 Dave Falconetti Sat, 01 Mar 2008 02:18:07 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49490 Will someone shoot this one trick pony and put us out of our misery? Will someone shoot this one trick pony and put us out of our misery?

]]> By: Britt Watwood http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49461 Britt Watwood Fri, 29 Feb 2008 12:41:05 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49461 I am with Jason...I too agree with your disagreement. (Nicely said, Jason!) We are living in transformative times, and Marc too often suggests that we (the teachers) can not pick up the "foreign language" of Web 2.0. Well, I consider myself an "older" digital native. Wes is a good model. We all can build excitement in our peers about using these tools to connect with our students and the larger world...or we can do as Marc suggests and not be involved. I am with Jason…I too agree with your disagreement. (Nicely said, Jason!)

We are living in transformative times, and Marc too often suggests that we (the teachers) can not pick up the “foreign language” of Web 2.0. Well, I consider myself an “older” digital native. Wes is a good model. We all can build excitement in our peers about using these tools to connect with our students and the larger world…or we can do as Marc suggests and not be involved.

]]> By: Matt http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49437 Matt Fri, 29 Feb 2008 04:29:42 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49437 I'll chime in with my frustration at Prensky's comments about teachers not needing to know the technology, too. Of course we need to be aware of the tools and what they can do; the only way to really be aware is get our hands dirty and try them out, create something ourselves. This has the added benefit of promoting conversations between teachers and students about the acts of learning and creating, helping both groups see one another as learners. I’ll chime in with my frustration at Prensky’s comments about teachers not needing to know the technology, too. Of course we need to be aware of the tools and what they can do; the only way to really be aware is get our hands dirty and try them out, create something ourselves.
This has the added benefit of promoting conversations between teachers and students about the acts of learning and creating, helping both groups see one another as learners.

]]> By: Jason http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49435 Jason Fri, 29 Feb 2008 02:15:49 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49435 Hi Wes... I was there today too and I have to agree with your disagreement (say that 10 times fast)... I think teachers absolutely much adopt these tools. Teachers have voices as you suggest, and left to their own devices, students simply will lack direction in making meaning of all of this information. I was also not 100% on board with teachers simply as assessor: we can still be experts of our content, even if students can use their new power to gather content, we can still be a guiding force and expert. Great notes... thanks... Hi Wes… I was there today too and I have to agree with your disagreement (say that 10 times fast)… I think teachers absolutely much adopt these tools. Teachers have voices as you suggest, and left to their own devices, students simply will lack direction in making meaning of all of this information. I was also not 100% on board with teachers simply as assessor: we can still be experts of our content, even if students can use their new power to gather content, we can still be a guiding force and expert. Great notes… thanks…

]]> By: Janice Stearns http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49428 Janice Stearns Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:11:44 +0000 http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/02/28/engage-me-or-enrage-me-educating-todays-digital-native-learners-2/#comment-49428 Having your reactions to Marc's presentation really help. I agree with all you have said. Tim Tyson for Secretary of Educations. YES! That teachers need to use and understand the tools before expecting students to use them, absolutely. Marc makes some great points in his presentation, but it's nice to see a little pushback. Having your reactions to Marc’s presentation really help. I agree with all you have said. Tim Tyson for Secretary of Educations. YES! That teachers need to use and understand the tools before expecting students to use them, absolutely. Marc makes some great points in his presentation, but it’s nice to see a little pushback.

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